KURT'S AND CHRIS'S EPIC CONVERSATION!

comic from http://the-lawn.net/comics.htm "truth" by Liz Popolo '04

Chris and I had a fun Facebook exchange over the last week. Thought I’d post it to the blog. It’s very long (lol), which is part of the fun. It all started with…………..

Chris: God is nothing else but truth, and if we can see truth, we can see God; but out inner eyes are too weak to be able to gaze on truth itself. September 23 at 9:17pm

Chris’ friend: Where’s this coming from? September 23 at 9:19pm

Kurt: Where's the love? September 23 at 9:57pm

Chris: I'm not saying that there isn't a God, I'm saying that we can't see God until we die and go to heaven, and that's if our soul is good or not. The reason, I think, that we can see God if our soul is good or not, is because God is the ultimate form of good, therefore, when we partake in good, i.e., our soul being good, and truly being good, not like a good dog, or a good city. Being good for the sake of being, is when we can only see God and we can only stay truly good forever after we are dead, unchanging. There's a lot of love!
September 23 at 11:26pm

Chris’ friend: That is some serious deep thought for a Wednesday. I generally reserve that for Friday nights. September 23 at 11:47pm

Chris: Why Fridays? September 23 at 11:53pm

Kurt: Very nice, Chris. I asked, "Where's the love" in reference to you saying God is nothing else but truth. I believe God is the perfect union of truth and good (or wisdom and love). You clarified in your last comment by adding that God is the ultimate form of good (and not just truth). I like what you say, and generally agree. Good stuff. September 24 at 11:37am

Chris’ friend: Because Friday is the day for sitting around and chilling until you go out. And I was also making a joke. And this whole thing really contradicts Wiccan doesn’t it? Unless you lied on your Facebook information. September 24 at 1:04pm

Kurt: Chris wouldn't lie! Just ask his wife. September 24 at 1:18pm

Chris: Haha. Thanks Kurt, and yea I know... about my wife, we got married in Vegas. We have a kid now :s September 24 at 3:03pm

Kurt: Well....congratulations! September 24 at 5:39pm

Chris: You said you generally agree, what don't you agree with? I'm not mad, I'm just wondering. September 24 at 5:42pm

Kurt: Well, it's a bit deep and we could discuss it further at the October retreat, but basically, I don't think anyone can truly see God. Even the highest angels cannot look directly at God. That said, I also think that we can get glimpses of God while we're here on earth still in our natural bodies. To use a reference from the Harry Potter series, the veil between our world and the next is a lot thinner then most people think. When we are "in the zone" we are pretty much in heaven already. September 24 at 5:50pm

Kurt: As for truth, God is divine truth. We are not God and can never fully know divine truth (even as angels), but I think we can get closer and closer to that level of understanding as long as we remain on a good and positive path towards the divine. September 24 at 6:04pm

Chris: I guess my question(s) for that is then, if we can achieve heaven here on earth, like being "in the zone", why do we obsess so much over getting to heaven, when, some of us are already in it, and most of us have been in it. And if we fall out this "zone" does this make us bad people? How do we get to this said "zone", do we have to be good or can a person who sins on purpose achieve this? I think that the word 'good' is too iffy. I think that there is no bad, just lesser of good. Like Plato writes (something like this, not the exact) basically, there is a perfect form of good (which appears to be that which Augustine thought was God) and then we have objects. Everything that is, simply takes part of this perfect good, which I remind you, is more of an idea. Something that we call "bad" is just not as good as it’s counterpart. Let’s say we have a "good" marker, we say that because it marks well, and then we have a "bad" marker, we say this because it marks poorly. The "bad" marker is not bad, it just has less good than the "good" marker. I think that we can apply this to the idea of God. Someone who is a, lets say... Apostle and someone that is a Sinner. The Apostle is not better than the Sinner, it's just that the Apostle takes part of God more, which is considered, good. Simply the Sinner has less "good" than the Apostle. Kind of confusing but there it is. September 24 at 11:32pm

Kurt: Lots of great questions!!! Way too many to address on a Fb wall! I like your examples of good vs. bad (I also agree that there is not a universal bad or devil, just lesser amounts of good). I hope you are coming to the LaPorte retreat so we can kick this stuff around a lot more. Also, in the meantime, you might want to take a look at the scyl blog (if you haven't already). Dr Dave wrote a nice series on truth, good and love (April, July and August, respectively). September 25 at 1:29pm

Chris: Lol, I will read the blog thing. Speaking of the retreat, when is that? The weekend before Halloween? September 25 at 4:47pm

Kurt: Yes. the weekend before Halloween. And in case we do not get a chance to talk at the retreat, I should at least address a couple of your questions. Heaven is not a place. It has no location (or perhaps every location is a better way to state it). It is a state. It is accessible to all at any time, but we cannot stay in a heavenly state for an extended period of time or even truly know that we are there while we are in an earthly body. There is just too much noise, falsity, hatred and confusion on the natural level to allow us to remain in heaven. Angels in our heavenly community can see us when we are there, but we cannot converse with them. You asked how you get into the zone. You are in the zone whenever your passion, thoughts and actions align with your heavenly purpose or in Swedenborgian terms, your ruling love. You are not "bad" when out of the zone. Just not aligned completely with your own personal heavenly community. September 25 at 10:39pm

Chris: If heaven is not a place that we "go" after we die (and just for the record I didn't think that heaven was a place, not being bitter also), what happens after we die? Do Swedenborgians believe in past lives and things like that? When we die we will go onto become another being, or when you're dead, you're dead? If that is the definition of the "zone" I don't think I've ever had that.. :s Gotta work on that, haha. September 25 at 11:22pm

Kurt: Basically, after we die, we live on. As spirits we remain ourselves, only even more "real" and more our true nature then while on earth. Angels and demons are just people no longer in their earthly bodies. In fact, some people who die suddenly don't know that they are dead at first. They wake up and think that they are just waking from a long sleep. Gradually, our outer layers slip away and our internal self becomes transparent for all to see. We no longer have "masks" and as we can no longer hide our inner self. We migrate into the heavenly or hellish community that most closely matches the life the we have led (what we have taken on as our ruling love) on earth. God does not throw or force people anywhere they don't already want to go. You are a collection of your own choices and once you are truly free to chose and cannot hide your inner self, you move into heaven or "cast" yourself into hell. God always insures you are as happy as you can be given your freedom of choice. Sat at 10:12am

Chris: Very nice. What do you base this off of (and by you I mean the Swedenborgians)? Just the writings of Swedenborg? I personally think that there is no hell the way people normally think of it, as in hell being bad. I think that "hell' is not flames and despair, it's just not heaven. Sun at 1:36am

Kurt: Yes. The writings of Swedenborg. Man, you sound so Swedenborgian. I'll bring a copy of Heaven and Hell to the retreat. You can keep it. It's a great introduction to Swedenborg's experience of the afterlife and whether your Swedenborgian or not, you should definitely check it out. Sun at 8:59am

Chris: Will do! I also want to get Suma Theologica by Thomas Aquanis or however you spell his name [Aquinas], but the real thing is like 1000+ pages and over 1000 dollars. How do I sound Swedenborgian? Sun at 12:22pm

Kurt: Lol, how don't you sound Swedenborgian! Your views on truth, afterlife, god, etc. of course, differences too. It's all good. Sun at 12:39pm

Chris: I'm not saying there is a God, I'm just saying that if this is all true I think this is how it'd be. Personally, I don't believe in God, but like I said, I think this is how it'd be if there was. Sun at 12:42pm

Kurt: I'm curious what God you don't believe in. I might not believe in that God either. Sun at 2:11pm

Chris: Well, I think that the flying spaghetti monster isn't real. But I'm saying that I don't think I believe in God at this moment in time. Maybe I will later on in life. Sun at 2:45pm

Kurt: I'm cool with that. Now, I have a question for you. I've had the pleasure of knowing many teens that don't believe in God. Why are they usually the ones with the clearest, most thoughtful and enlightened views of God, heaven and the next life?
Sun at 10:14pm

Chris: I think it is because, when the teens that you are talking about [the ones that don’t believe in God] don't just say it because they think it's cool and hip. They research, look for different religions that support their ideas, discuss, and most of all think about what they are saying. I'm not saying that the smart ones choose that there is no God. I'm just saying that these teens have not found any "proof" to say that there is. Proof is also a iffy word, so I can't clearly define it. These teens are not ok with just accepting that there is a God, and continue to worship that God for the rest of their life. If they are going to worship, they will research, and try to find what they believe to be the right answer. Sun at 11:21pm

Kurt: Thanks. Sounds reasonable. So not believing in God doesn't equal not believing in life after death? Mon at 9:35am

Chris: No, it does not. I also think that they [again, those that do not believe in God] have the best ideas of heaven and all that jazz because we are challenged to answer those questions, by other people, priests, and things of the like. Mon at 12:22pm

Kurt: Do you mind if I copy our Fb conversation and post it on the scyl blog? I think others might be interested in reading what we have been discussing. If you'd rather I didn't, that is ok too. Mon at 10:21pm

Chris: No no no, by all means go ahead. Will you post it and it'll be like,
KURT'S AND CHRIS'S EPIC CONVERSATION! Please :s Mon at 10:22pm

Kurt: Ok. That will be the title. Mon at 10:27pm